Transmitter DJ/TJ problem

by **xochi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:12

Today and otherdays we are having major problems with the map transmitter. The problem is the ladder at the tunnel. There are always allies that Doublejump to lower the ladder, but thanks to that a engi can go via that to the command post and make it and take objective and go.... So back to the point as you can see that is double jump for objective. So I told no db for objective and so on also st.shadow and ckey where there they can approve that what i am saying is true.
Now the allies wont listen to what i had to say they just started to say that it is normal and that the ladder switch is so placed that you can do that.
Now what to do with this problem?

greet xochi

by **St-Shadow** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:14

The situation that just happened was actually hilarious, since even xochi were told to shut up lol. The restrictions concerning doublejump for objective shall be more harsh IMO, since it's ruining the game for teamworkers on the opposite team, makes no fun at all.

It was actually hard to explain to allies that they are breaking the rules what was kinda surprising....

For now I suggest to remove the map immediately

by **xochi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:17

Oh yeah that is right theaviatorone was telling me to shut up because i was trying to explain it to the other allies that it is not legal to do and that rules are there to follow. With out rules there would be chaos. But hey if they are telling me to shut up damn sorry but I try to do my job as candidate. And try to help from all sides.

by **ckEy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:23

Hello,

indeed. The rulebook is quite clear about this problem:

rules wrote:Donâ€™t use trickjumps or doublejumps to complete a map objective, for example; jumping over the wall as an engineer to blow up the fuel dump to complete the map.

Now given that allies can use the ladder to access and build CP and/or take the objective and make their way through with objective I would consider such a behaviour illegal..
To use an analogy; Saberspeak you can jump over the door before the breach is blown which is not objective in itself but it gives you access to sub.

Since this effectively gives a direct advantage to allies and few times actually did result in quick victory for the attacking team I would either suggest removal of double jump on this map or, as St-Shadow suggested, removal of the map in question from rotation.

EDIT: Nah, TheAviatorOne was merely trying to move the discussion here on forums, it was the other folks who were rather uncooperative.

Best,
ckey

by **Dre_of_chaos** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:26

I agree with you guys but there is a different side to this that you need to understand.

Someone who doesn't want to do objective and lowers the ladder isn't doing anything wrong himself, only people who lower the ladder AND do objective are breaking the rules. (This was said by an admin)

I'll give an example with a different map: in fueldump allied medics are allowed to doublejump over the wall and kill axis engi's or revive allied engi's. They aren't doing objective BUT they still impact other players who are doing to objective.

Also if some random new guy starts telling you to shut up, remind him to respect other players and if they can't do that take screenshots.

by **ckEy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:29

Dre_of_chaos wrote:I agree with you guys but there is a different side to this that you need to understand.

Someone who doesn't want to do objective and lowers the ladder isn't doing anything wrong himself, only people who lower the ladder AND do objective are breaking the rules. (This was said by an admin)

The problem as I see it is following:

Guy A lowers the ladder, he goes for frag. Okay, fine by me.
Guy B comes, he would see already lowered ladder. So cool, he ain't breaking anything either.

That is the subtle problem I see on this part of the map.

by **xochi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:29

i think that the one that said shut up to me is a lvl 2 player and so i think he knows rules. And about your point thats right with fuel dump, but with this map it is different because now the engis will use the ladder when medic lowers it with DJ. So think is best to delete map like st.shadow told.

!highfive xochi

by **CFACF** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:38

wtf people break the rules and the map is removed.
not think that's fair, is violating the rules must be punished.

by **DeXt3R** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:46

Dre_of_chaos wrote:Someone who doesn't want to do objective and lowers the ladder isn't doing anything wrong himself, only people who lower the ladder AND do objective are breaking the rules. (This was said by an admin)

i'm curious who said it, and imo its rule breaking, coz he might(that medic who lower ladder) go only fraging but there can also go some engi and use ladder to do obj, and if he didnt know how it was lowered he aren't rule breaking in his (and mine) opinion

xochi wrote:I try to do my job as candidate

+1 for U

St-Shadow wrote:I suggest to remove the map immediately

imo this ain't solution, we should discuss about it and make decision is it allowed or not

by **Dre_of_chaos** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:47

xochi wrote:i think that the one that said shut up to me is a lvl 2 player and so i think he knows rules

I've seen higher level players who have been mistaken/breaking rules, you can't look at that.

This map needs constant admin surveillance but that ain't going to happen

, just chill and don't start screaming at people when they lower the ladder because you don't know if he is doing obj or not.

by **xochi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 15:47

This is the log from the map transmitter.

[et_code]

14:54:09 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2guys no dj
14:54:12 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2for that ladder
14:54:25 (zuberek^7)^3(^3 1257):^5CP!
14:54:27 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2who did this
14:54:29 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2tladder
14:54:42 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2canny
14:54:45 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2please dont break the rules
14:54:47 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2how you got there
14:54:49 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2you cant go through the ladder
14:54:52 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2?
14:54:57 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2saukko
14:54:59 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2can you restart
14:55:05 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2!slap canny 120 no db for objective
14:55:05 ^dslap: ^*Canny77 ^9was slapped^7
14:55:18 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2Guys all listen
14:55:19 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2allies
14:55:27 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2dont lower ladder with double jump
14:55:31 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2its mean to be done tj way
14:55:31 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2that is not legal
14:55:33 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2ladfder
14:55:41 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2no tj for objective
14:55:44 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2...
14:55:46 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2and if you do it there
14:55:53 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2what happens engi can go trough
14:55:54 Canny77^3: ^2Yes!
14:55:55 ^0K-Light.K^7: ^2xD
14:55:56 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2and make everything
14:56:01 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2it was done this way so it would be doable with tj
14:56:03 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2so it is tj for objective and not legal
14:56:14 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2rules uber alles
14:56:15 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2!rulebook
14:56:15 ^4*** ^4P^5rime ^4S^5quadron ^4R^5ulebook ^4***
14:56:15 ^4N^5o ^4S^5pawnkilling ^s(SK) ^4o^5r ^4S^5pawncamping ^s(SC)
14:56:15 ^4N^5o ^4T^5eamkilling ^s(TK) ^4o^5r ^4T^5eambleeding ^s(TB)
14:56:16 ^4D^5on^4'^5t ^4I^5nsult ^4o^5r ^4P^5rovoke
14:56:16 ^4N^5o ^4-|^5PS^4|- ^4T^5ag ^4S^5tealing
14:56:16 ^4D^5on^4'^5t ^4a^5sk ^4f^5or ^4A^5dmin ^4L^5evels
14:56:17 ^4N^5o ^4R^5ecruiting
14:56:17 ^4D^5on^4'^5t ^4A^5dvertise ^4o^5r ^4S^5pam
14:56:17 ^4N^5o ^4I^5nfight ^4S^5elfkill
14:56:18 ^4O^5nly ^4E^5nglish ^4a^5llowed ^4h^5ere!
14:56:18 ^4C^5omplete ^4R^5ulebook ^4a^5t ^4P^5rime-^4S^5quadron.com
14:56:24 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2there also stands
14:56:27 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2in the rulebook
14:56:31 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2Xochi....
14:56:33 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2nice win allies
14:56:34 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2shut up :P
14:56:34 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2lol
14:56:34 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2no double jump and no tj for objective
14:56:39 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2i cannot think as rules are doing it for me
14:56:47 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2!admintest
14:56:47 ^dadmintest: ^7^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^9 is a level 7 user ^9(^7^hC^2andidate^9)^7
14:56:48 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2what a useless comment
14:56:50 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2maybe you get it now
14:56:54 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2lol aviator
14:56:58 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2All those 100 sentenced of you can me made to 1: no doublejump for objective
14:56:59 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2and Done
14:57:05 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2i told
14:57:09 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2but you guys never listen
14:57:11 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2aviator
14:57:11 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2and still you are doing obj this way
14:57:16 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2No, you needed 10 senteced to explain us.
14:57:25 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2Nope, I did not lowered the ladder =)
14:57:27 ^o-|PS|-*Saukko^7: ^21 to axis
14:57:29 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2theaviator why do you guys still do it then
14:57:31 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2he needs, because the map is ruined now
14:57:36 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2yes
14:57:36 ^0K-Light.K^3: ^2Excellent!
14:57:39 ^XC^3F^0A^4^3C^XF^7: ^2omg
14:57:40 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2tand that is why we went spec
14:57:41 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2That is actually not the issue here. The issue is that DJ/TJ was done, so do not change the topic guys.
14:57:44 ^0K-Light.K^3: ^2Sehr gut!
14:57:45 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2I did not lower the ladder.
14:58:34 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2ur doing so much drama over ladder which is hardly even an obj
14:58:41 ^1Vello Orumets^7: ^2lol
14:58:42 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2biblio
14:58:42 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2i would consider it obj
14:58:44 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2:>
14:58:46 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2look dont you still get it
14:58:55 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2if you lower the ladder trough db
14:58:58 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2or tj
14:58:59 zuberek^7: ^2one to axis pls
14:58:59 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2you can join teamspeak
14:59:05 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2a engi can climb it
14:59:06 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2the switch was designed so it would be reachable via tj
14:59:10 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2and make objective
14:59:16 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2Guys, go to forum and talk there. We are here to game, not to talk like MSN
14:59:19 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2so werest the problem
14:59:21 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2biblio, as a result of the ladder you did build CP which gives you an edge with objective, I would consider that to be objective relate
14:59:21 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2the rules were designed so you will not break them
14:59:33 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2its not wall some1 jump so he can win game in secongs
14:59:40 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2its just ladder
14:59:43 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2lol
14:59:59 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2and that is your argument? rather interesting ... it is just a ladder
14:59:59 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2you still have barriers there
14:59:59 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2so what i problem the,
15:00:01 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2t
15:00:02 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2on both ways
15:00:09 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2rules are to follow and not to break
15:00:12 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2i think its a great argument
15:00:16 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2otherwise everything would be mest up
15:00:32 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2what is the problem allies, follow the rules
15:00:35 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2^1Rule: No abuse of doublejump to do Obj. So, not lower the ladder. End of Discussion.
15:00:36 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2rules are no tj for obj and ladder is hardly an obj
15:00:51 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2nvm you dont get it
15:01:08 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2yes i dont why do you defend this switch with all you might
15:01:08 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2you do not simply get it ... let's take saberspeak for instance .. you can DJ/TJ the door, which is not obj in itself, but it gives you
15:01:13 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2+access to sub
15:01:22 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2which makes it illegal as far as rules are concerned
15:01:27 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2yep
15:01:36 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2is it illegal when doors are blown btw?
15:01:42 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2End of discussion Bibliotheca, quit it. If you want to discuss it, feel free to go to the forums.
15:01:47 ^gck^oEy^3: ^2Yes!
15:01:50 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2no then not if the door is open you may go trough
15:01:53 ^0K-Light.K^3: ^2Wunderbar!
15:02:00 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2tbut if it is intact and you jump over it
15:02:06 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2it is a rulebreak
15:02:07 ^0St^n.^0Shad^no^0w^7: ^2you are wrong, you should go to forums and read the rules
15:02:11 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2xochi, quit it. Please.
15:02:17 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2everyone doing that tj there and i didnt saw anyone making problems out of it
15:02:20 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2theaviator i am not only guy matie
15:02:27 ^gck^oEy^7: ^2yes, let's stop it ... we can argue about it on forums of you would like to
15:02:27 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2that is telling thi
15:02:28 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2s
15:02:33 Bibliotheca Mystica de Dantalian^7: ^2kk
15:02:47 ^0x^8o^0c^8h^0i^7: ^2just play
15:02:51 ^9The^2Aviator^3One^7*^7: ^2A friendly request just to quit this discussion and play. For discussions, go to forums.

[/et_code]

by **DMG_Kowi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 16:01

But that way you can pinpoint so many examples. On Oasis map there is handful of places where double jump gives great aid for allies. Examples?
- easy to access buildings/ruins surrounding old city and support assault from there
- going straight from the 2nd tunnel entrance, you can easily get at fortress upper level and that way it's easier to reach guns imo
- easier access on the balcony over old city pump -> easier to make cov_op+engie action

They are not as clear as switching the ladder on transmittah, but still nice help in obj imo.

There was discussion about that already... so finally it isn't allowed, is it? I don't remember.
However this what happens when dj is enabled. It just encourages people to make use of it and it is natural I think. I also think that if you want completely fair game for objective u should just have dj disabled, at least on some specific maps (supply...).

by **Dre_of_chaos** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 16:02

DeXt3R wrote:
Dre_of_chaos wrote:Someone who doesn't want to do objective and lowers the ladder isn't doing anything wrong himself, only people who lower the ladder AND do objective are breaking the rules. (This was said by an admin)

i'm curious who said it, and imo its rule breaking, coz he might(that medic who lower ladder) go only fraging but there can also go some engi and use ladder to do obj, and if he didnt know how it was lowered he aren't rule breaking in his (and mine) opinion

Bowdown, pretty important in ps1 last I checked.

Check this demo if you want to see him say it: http://wotan.prime-squadron.com/uploads ... 49341ac045

Edit: Just read the logs xochi posted, maybe you should talk to an admin before you start laying down the law.

by **TheAviatorOne** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 16:36

xochi wrote:Oh yeah that is right theaviatorone was telling me to shut up because i was trying to explain it to the other allies that it is not legal to do and that rules are there to follow. With out rules there would be chaos. But hey if they are telling me to shut up damn sorry but I try to do my job as candidate. And try to help from all sides.

As you can see in the console (screenshot you posted), "shut up" was not ment as you've nothing to tell or that you did not made a good point about doublejumping for object. "Shut up" was ment as: Xochi, please quit the dicussion and be clear with one or two sentences about what you want. Don't spam the whole chatbox full and don't blame players immediately. Just be global and clear with a few sentences or PM the player who broke a rule. Don't show players that you might know it better to prove that you can be the perfect Prime Squadron Member.

by **St-Shadow** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 16:58

TheAviatorOne wrote:
xochi wrote:Oh yeah that is right theaviatorone was telling me to shut up because i was trying to explain it to the other allies that it is not legal to do and that rules are there to follow. With out rules there would be chaos. But hey if they are telling me to shut up damn sorry but I try to do my job as candidate. And try to help from all sides.

As you can see in the console (screenshot you posted), "shut up" was not ment as you've nothing to tell or that you did not made a good point about doublejumping for object. "Shut up" was ment as: Xochi, please quit the dicussion and be clear with one or two sentences about what you want. Don't spam the whole chatbox full and don't blame players immediately. Just be global and clear with a few sentences or PM the player who broke a rule. Don't show players that you might know it better to prove that you can be the perfect Prime Squadron Member.

As you said by yourself, if xochi already (in your view on the matter) could use another words to tell you to not break rules you could actually use another, more sufficient words instead of "shut up". I am sorry you did not.

DeXt3R wrote:
St-Shadow wrote:I suggest to remove the map immediately

imo this ain't solution, we should discuss about it and make decision is it allowed or not

What to discuss here? Since ladder was up by allies going through the canal even though it was done to just frag it's obvious that it will has a use for teamwork to get into CP and obj and so on... it gives unfair disadvantage. No doubts it's not allowed.

by **xochi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:03

TheAviatorOne wrote:

Don't show players that you might know it better to prove that you can be the perfect Prime Squadron Member.

I am so terribly sorry that i try to do my job as candidate.

by **DeXt3R** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:21

St-Shadow wrote:What to discuss here? Since ladder was up by allies going through the canal even though it was done to just frag it's obvious that it will has a use for teamwork to get into CP and obj and so on... it gives unfair disadvantage. No doubts it's not allowed.

allow/disallow medics use ladder for fraging...

by **ckEy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:25

DeXt3R wrote:allow/disallow medics use ladder for fraging...

it can be anybody lol, fdops or anything ... when it is down engi can go after you .. the point being?

by **St-Shadow** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:26

Your answer has no ground, since engineer can go with medic/fieldop/covop/soldier anybody else, only not engi will bring the ladder down and go as second, in this meaning it is allowed? This is pointless.

by **DeXt3R** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:28

i was thinking about players which arent engi, but ok i will write it like this:

allow/disallow no engi players use ladder for fraging...

ofc if engi = rule breaking

by **TheAviatorOne** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:40

Disable doublejump at Transmitter. With some server settings you can turn on/off doublejump per map. In this case off for Transmitter.

by **egglaf** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:41

Well technically, strictly following the rules, it is indeed a rulebreak. But due to pragmatic reasons and a relatively small influence on the gameplay of that map, most admins don't warn for it.

Both sides happy now?

by **DeXt3R** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 17:51

egglaf wrote:Well technically, strictly following the rules, it is indeed a rulebreak. But due to pragmatic reasons and a relatively small influence on the gameplay of that map, most admins don't warn for it.

Both sides happy now?

i don't want argue about it, i just want to find way out from this situation, how i posted earlier removing map isnt solution maybe like aviator says and some1 else before him disable dj is better solution, ofc imo

by **DMG_Kowi** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 18:02

Guys, note one thing. PS1 is usually a crowded server. Imagine that lowering ladder with dj is impossible by some means, so that allies have practically 1 way to proceed with the mission (bridge). And when it is 14 vs. 14 for example try to imagine how hard it may be to break through. Constant arty, airstrikes, mortaring, nades may be hard to pass through.
But if we play so that ladder can be lowered by tj. Ok, it is easier for allies to get to the house where modification kit is stored, but still they have to blow 2 gates (unless they have disguised covie) and both ways it takes some time. So if axis are mindful enough when they hear 'they have stolen modification kit' they have enough time to set up defence at both gates, which are sometimes so hard to pass.
Nevertheless such action always helps in capturing forward hut, since defence at hut is weakened.

by **egglaf** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 18:03

Removing doublejumps is neither a solution unfortunately, one players steps on a teammates' head and the problem is back.

Wait for the reply of an higher admin than me for a more sophisticated/final answer.

Egglaf

Transmitter DJ/TJ problem

Transmitter DJ/TJ problem

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